Comments on: The Mass as Holy Week http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/ asylum for your refugee soul Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:21:39 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Carol http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3735 Carol Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:26:31 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3735 I always picture Jesus and John sharing a silent smile over one or another of Jesus' wry observations that often went straight over the Pharisees' heads. There had to be smiles even after He left His mom's house, you know? And I can (too) well imagine Peter not knowing what to do in a lot of instances regarding crowds, but I think John kept his eyes on Jesus, knowing that all of it was under the authority of His love, ultimately. I've often thought that we ended up with Holy Mass and the Divine Liturgy because of Peter and John, but I never thought of historical people as types of will and intellect, Jerome.. I'll be thinking on that. Interesting! I always picture Jesus and John sharing a silent smile over one or another of Jesus’ wry observations that often went straight over the Pharisees’ heads. There had to be smiles even after He left His mom’s house, you know? And I can (too) well imagine Peter not knowing what to do in a lot of instances regarding crowds, but I think John kept his eyes on Jesus, knowing that all of it was under the authority of His love, ultimately.

I’ve often thought that we ended up with Holy Mass and the Divine Liturgy because of Peter and John, but I never thought of historical people as types of will and intellect, Jerome.. I’ll be thinking on that. Interesting!

]]> By: livingmonstrance http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3734 livingmonstrance Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:59:19 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3734 Hi Gabrielle, Thanks for this thought as well. Yes, I was thinking that the relationship between Peter and John relects the relationship between the will and the intellect. The intellect and will have a special relationship. The will leads the intellect in that the will decides what will be placed before the intellect to consider. Look at this image, read this book, listen to these words, etc. Avoid this or that. But here's the catch for the will: the intellect is bound to whatever truth it is exposed to. And not only that, when the intellect is bound to something, the will must follow into action. So, the intellect and will are inter-dependent upon one another, for the good of the whole. So, a good will desires that the intellect find the truth, so that the intellect can be bound to it, and so that it (the will) can follow the truth that the intellect has identified. A bad will does not want to follow the truth, and so keeps the intellect from exposure to the truth, for fear that it will be forced to obey it. And even when the intellect does find the truth, the bad will denies its very nature to follow. This is sin. The resurrection accounts of Peter and John in John's Gospel correspond to this description of a good will, I think. Remember, John spoke in the boat, "It is the Lord!" and Peter jumped out of the boat to swim to shore. Clearly, Peter is glad that John has found and identified the Lord, and Peter acts immediately on it. And on the way to the tomb, it is as though Peter [the will] decided to go to the tomb, the Divine mystery; and so John [the intellect] responds and freely leads the way (Peter didn't call him back and try to control what he saw, though he could have.) But the intellect will not actually *enter* the Divine mystery until the will decides to. After the will decides to enter the mystery, it is again the intellect that leads in seeing. This gets to the insights of Mr. Erigene, that it is contemplation only that comprehends the mysteries and must precede action. In a sense, we must begin with an action of directing contemplation to a place, resolving in trust that we will act on what contemplation reveals. This is great prayer! You know, as I read it, I think that this discussion could go on for a really, really long time. After your next comment, I probably won't be commenting again, but it certainly has been insightful and a good reminder for me. Hi Gabrielle,

Thanks for this thought as well. Yes, I was thinking that the relationship between Peter and John relects the relationship between the will and the intellect.

The intellect and will have a special relationship. The will leads the intellect in that the will decides what will be placed before the intellect to consider. Look at this image, read this book, listen to these words, etc. Avoid this or that.

But here’s the catch for the will: the intellect is bound to whatever truth it is exposed to. And not only that, when the intellect is bound to something, the will must follow into action.

So, the intellect and will are inter-dependent upon one another, for the good of the whole.

So, a good will desires that the intellect find the truth, so that the intellect can be bound to it, and so that it (the will) can follow the truth that the intellect has identified.

A bad will does not want to follow the truth, and so keeps the intellect from exposure to the truth, for fear that it will be forced to obey it. And even when the intellect does find the truth, the bad will denies its very nature to follow. This is sin.

The resurrection accounts of Peter and John in John’s Gospel correspond to this description of a good will, I think. Remember, John spoke in the boat, “It is the Lord!” and Peter jumped out of the boat to swim to shore. Clearly, Peter is glad that John has found and identified the Lord, and Peter acts immediately on it. And on the way to the tomb, it is as though Peter [the will] decided to go to the tomb, the Divine mystery; and so John [the intellect] responds and freely leads the way (Peter didn’t call him back and try to control what he saw, though he could have.) But the intellect will not actually *enter* the Divine mystery until the will decides to. After the will decides to enter the mystery, it is again the intellect that leads in seeing.

This gets to the insights of Mr. Erigene, that it is contemplation only that comprehends the mysteries and must precede action. In a sense, we must begin with an action of directing contemplation to a place, resolving in trust that we will act on what contemplation reveals. This is great prayer!

You know, as I read it, I think that this discussion could go on for a really, really long time. After your next comment, I probably won’t be commenting again, but it certainly has been insightful and a good reminder for me.

]]> By: Gabrielle http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3724 Gabrielle Mon, 05 Oct 2009 03:28:29 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3724 Thank you, Jerome. Your thought in the last paragraph, "we find the Risen Christ in our lives by relating our life events to the Mass" strikes me as a very important and efficacious practice, and I can honestly say that it's one I've never thought of before. I've certainly tried to relate life events to Scripture as a whole and to the life of Christ, but not directly to the Mass, but now that we've been discussing how the Mass actually contains everything, I will try to do this as well. I appreciate your sharing what you've gained from Roy Shoeman's "Salvation is from the Jews", and your private interpretations as well. This is a book that one of my pastors strongly recommended several years ago, but I haven't read it yet; it and Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper" recommended by Owen will be on my winter reading list. But I've just now printed out your comments so I can read them quietly during the week. I wanted to share something with you (and perhaps other readers as well) - a couple of years ago on one of her blogs, Carol posted about something that Jean Scot Erigene said. It struck me as quite important, and so I jotted down a note about it. I'm paraphrasing I think, but Erigene said that John ran faster to the tomb than Peter (and I assume this is in a metaphorical sense, not because he was possibly younger and in better shape than Peter :)) because of the power of contemplation to penetrate the mysteries of the Divine, the power of contemplation being more purified than that of action. Thank you, Jerome. Your thought in the last paragraph, “we find the Risen Christ in our lives by relating our life events to the Mass” strikes me as a very important and efficacious practice, and I can honestly say that it’s one I’ve never thought of before. I’ve certainly tried to relate life events to Scripture as a whole and to the life of Christ, but not directly to the Mass, but now that we’ve been discussing how the Mass actually contains everything, I will try to do this as well.

I appreciate your sharing what you’ve gained from Roy Shoeman’s “Salvation is from the Jews”, and your private interpretations as well. This is a book that one of my pastors strongly recommended several years ago, but I haven’t read it yet; it and Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper” recommended by Owen will be on my winter reading list. But I’ve just now printed out your comments so I can read them quietly during the week.

I wanted to share something with you (and perhaps other readers as well) – a couple of years ago on one of her blogs, Carol posted about something that Jean Scot Erigene said. It struck me as quite important, and so I jotted down a note about it. I’m paraphrasing I think, but Erigene said that John ran faster to the tomb than Peter (and I assume this is in a metaphorical sense, not because he was possibly younger and in better shape than Peter :) ) because of the power of contemplation to penetrate the mysteries of the Divine, the power of contemplation being more purified than that of action.

]]> By: livingmonstrance http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3719 livingmonstrance Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:37:07 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3719 Thanks Gabrielle for your always kind words. If an online course ever happens, I'll be sure to let you know! There is a private inspiration that I'll share, in following up with the Afikomen. This, again, is my own inspiration - I believe that it's very possible that it's true, but of course, it's a private interpretation. But I will share it because I think it edifies in devotion to the Mass. In the beloved disciple's Gospel, there are two resurrection scenes I'm thinking of. Remember when Peter and John run to the tomb. Part of the reason that John comes to see and believe is because - I believe - they ran for the Afikomen in the same way at the Last Supper, the first Mass! Someone said, it's over there, they ran for it, John got there first but deferred to Peter, etc. I believe that in part, John's sight and belief in the Resurrected Lord is connected to his relating the post-resurrection experiences to the events at the first Mass! And then, later on, while fishing, the Lord calls out "Children, have you caught anything?" No. Try the other side of the boat. Then they caught the huge draft. John recognized the Lord then. Why? I believe it's because that same course of events happened with the Afikomen at the first Mass! As the "children" searched for it, the Lord asked, children have you found it? No. Try over here. They checked (with Peter and John leading) and found it. Again, John is recognizing the Risen Christ by relating his experiences to the first Mass! That's the lesson I'm drawing out of this (again private) inspiration, that we find the Risen Christ in our lives by relating our life events to the Mass! It makes it so simple. Thanks Gabrielle for your always kind words. If an online course ever happens, I’ll be sure to let you know!

There is a private inspiration that I’ll share, in following up with the Afikomen. This, again, is my own inspiration – I believe that it’s very possible that it’s true, but of course, it’s a private interpretation. But I will share it because I think it edifies in devotion to the Mass.

In the beloved disciple’s Gospel, there are two resurrection scenes I’m thinking of. Remember when Peter and John run to the tomb. Part of the reason that John comes to see and believe is because – I believe – they ran for the Afikomen in the same way at the Last Supper, the first Mass! Someone said, it’s over there, they ran for it, John got there first but deferred to Peter, etc. I believe that in part, John’s sight and belief in the Resurrected Lord is connected to his relating the post-resurrection experiences to the events at the first Mass!

And then, later on, while fishing, the Lord calls out “Children, have you caught anything?” No. Try the other side of the boat. Then they caught the huge draft. John recognized the Lord then. Why? I believe it’s because that same course of events happened with the Afikomen at the first Mass! As the “children” searched for it, the Lord asked, children have you found it? No. Try over here. They checked (with Peter and John leading) and found it. Again, John is recognizing the Risen Christ by relating his experiences to the first Mass!

That’s the lesson I’m drawing out of this (again private) inspiration, that we find the Risen Christ in our lives by relating our life events to the Mass! It makes it so simple.

]]> By: Gabrielle http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3709 Gabrielle Sun, 27 Sep 2009 05:13:52 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3709 Hi Jerome; I've read your comment three times now, but this is so interesting to me that I think I'll actually have to take a few notes tomorrow and ponder some of the points you've made more closely. Thank you for sharing all this; if you ever decide to design an online course on any subject, and if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'll sign up! :) Hi Jerome; I’ve read your comment three times now, but this is so interesting to me that I think I’ll actually have to take a few notes tomorrow and ponder some of the points you’ve made more closely. Thank you for sharing all this; if you ever decide to design an online course on any subject, and if it doesn’t cost an arm and a leg, I’ll sign up! :)
]]> By: livingmonstrance http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3705 livingmonstrance Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:59:56 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3705 HI Gabrielle, The topic you've brought up is an exciting one for me. It is true that the Eucharist is the Resurrected Christ. It's also true that - and this is very important for adorers, too - all of the mysteries of Jesus' Life are present in the Eucharist and at the Mass. St. Peter Julian Eymard discusses this mystery in some of his writings. So, it is true, as you've noticed, that everything from the Passion through the Resurrection is present. But it's also true that every mystery is present. Every mystery of the Rosary is present. The whole of Scripture is present for contemplation. And in Eucharistic Adoration, that moment of consecration is suspended in time, if you will, so that the soul may contemplate all the msyteries of Christ's Life. St. Eymard in fact notes that the person *must* contemplate the different mysteries in contemplation, so as not to become "Stupid in prayer", as he says. This all comes from the truth that the crucifixion and resurrection casts a certain light on all of Christ's Life. All His Life is fundamentally understood through this lens, as it is the foundation of revealing God to us. The Greek word He uses when saying, "It is finished" point to the whole of His Life. LIkewise, there are many beautiful elements of Scipture that bind the Crucifixion and Resurrection together, especially the Psalms, but also in the Gospel of John (I'm going by memory), the Greek words for dead and risen are juxtaposed. Again, there is the notion of His whole Life being characterized by this intimacy between death and resurrection, which is so often expressed as the "hallmark" of God's servant in the Psalms. A beautiful study can be found in the Resurrection accounts in Scripture, especially in regards to the Eucharist (the road to Emmaus, for example.) There is a great little document on the website of Roy Shoeman, who is the author of Salvation Is From The Jews, regarding a Jewish-Christian passover supper. It explains much and relates is to the Mass: http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/HC.pdf Of special interest to me is the Afikomen. At one point in the meal, three Matzos are placed on a tray. The middle one is removed and broken in two, and one half is wrapped and hidden and later redeemed for a reward (think Christ's crucified body being buried). This piece of bread is called the Afikomen, meaning "that which is to come". Then, after the meal, the children would go looking for it. Whoever found it brought it to the head of the family. Then, he opened the wrapping, broke it, and gave it to the others present. This is very deep and I have to run now, but I'll post again, Gabrielle, God bless! Jerome HI Gabrielle,
The topic you’ve brought up is an exciting one for me. It is true that the Eucharist is the Resurrected Christ. It’s also true that – and this is very important for adorers, too – all of the mysteries of Jesus’ Life are present in the Eucharist and at the Mass. St. Peter Julian Eymard discusses this mystery in some of his writings. So, it is true, as you’ve noticed, that everything from the Passion through the Resurrection is present. But it’s also true that every mystery is present. Every mystery of the Rosary is present. The whole of Scripture is present for contemplation. And in Eucharistic Adoration, that moment of consecration is suspended in time, if you will, so that the soul may contemplate all the msyteries of Christ’s Life. St. Eymard in fact notes that the person *must* contemplate the different mysteries in contemplation, so as not to become “Stupid in prayer”, as he says.
This all comes from the truth that the crucifixion and resurrection casts a certain light on all of Christ’s Life. All His Life is fundamentally understood through this lens, as it is the foundation of revealing God to us. The Greek word He uses when saying, “It is finished” point to the whole of His Life.
LIkewise, there are many beautiful elements of Scipture that bind the Crucifixion and Resurrection together, especially the Psalms, but also in the Gospel of John (I’m going by memory), the Greek words for dead and risen are juxtaposed. Again, there is the notion of His whole Life being characterized by this intimacy between death and resurrection, which is so often expressed as the “hallmark” of God’s servant in the Psalms.
A beautiful study can be found in the Resurrection accounts in Scripture, especially in regards to the Eucharist (the road to Emmaus, for example.)

There is a great little document on the website of Roy Shoeman, who is the author of Salvation Is From The Jews, regarding a Jewish-Christian passover supper. It explains much and relates is to the Mass:
http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/HC.pdf
Of special interest to me is the Afikomen. At one point in the meal, three Matzos are placed on a tray. The middle one is removed and broken in two, and one half is wrapped and hidden and later redeemed for a reward (think Christ’s crucified body being buried). This piece of bread is called the Afikomen, meaning “that which is to come”. Then, after the meal, the children would go looking for it. Whoever found it brought it to the head of the family. Then, he opened the wrapping, broke it, and gave it to the others present.
This is very deep and I have to run now, but I’ll post again, Gabrielle,

God bless!
Jerome

]]> By: gabrielle http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3670 gabrielle Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:50:49 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3670 Carol, I am delving into the parts of the Mass more deeply now, reading both in the Catechism and elsewhere, and am loving it. Soooooo much more to learn.... Owen, don't know if I'll be able to find time to read it this fall, but as soon as I do, would love to discuss it! Carol, I am delving into the parts of the Mass more deeply now, reading both in the Catechism and elsewhere, and am loving it. Soooooo much more to learn….

Owen, don’t know if I’ll be able to find time to read it this fall, but as soon as I do, would love to discuss it!

]]> By: Owen http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3664 Owen Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:25:17 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3664 Gabrielle, I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts on the Hahn book when you're done. Email me if you like. Gabrielle, I’d be interested in knowing your thoughts on the Hahn book when you’re done. Email me if you like.
]]> By: Carol O http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3661 Carol O Tue, 08 Sep 2009 16:25:22 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3661 I'm afraid I got too far away from your initial topic theme "Mass as Holy Week," because there is indeed a genuine excitement for Mass. I once said it aloud in RCIA, "Aw, do we have to go home now? Can't we all just come and live here?" If it was like that even in '83 over mere RCIA, you can imagine what Mass itself is like for me these days; the older I get, the more I realize that the Holy Mass is our Heaven on earth. It's All there. And it's too brief. How can people do without Mass? That's sorta like opting for artificial legs over one's own strong, dependable ones. I don't get it. I’m afraid I got too far away from your initial topic theme “Mass as Holy Week,” because there is indeed a genuine excitement for Mass. I once said it aloud in RCIA, “Aw, do we have to go home now? Can’t we all just come and live here?” If it was like that even in ‘83 over mere RCIA, you can imagine what Mass itself is like for me these days; the older I get, the more I realize that the Holy Mass is our Heaven on earth. It’s All there. And it’s too brief. How can people do without Mass? That’s sorta like opting for artificial legs over one’s own strong, dependable ones. I don’t get it.
]]> By: Carol O http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/2009/09/06/the-mass-as-holy-week/comment-page-1/#comment-3660 Carol O Tue, 08 Sep 2009 16:13:09 +0000 http://gabrielle.stblogs.com/?p=2033#comment-3660 Well, I cannot recall the book title nor its Jesuit author's name, and I'll check my local library -- I think I simply bumped into it there (don't we all just go to the Catholic shelves and feast our eyes with a burning heart?), but what really blew me away about it was that this stuff seemed basic knowledge -- yet another *basic knowledge* I'd never heard a word about! I'm pretty sure one of its subtitles was "we are saved in community". After an hour's Googling, no such book sprang forth, but there was an abundance of sacramental grace books that whetted my eyeballs, one not least of which is by one of your newly favorite authors, Adrienne von Speyr, "The word becomes flesh: Meditations on John 1-5." It is as tempting as a whole box of dark chocolate covered raspberry creams. Seriously. I will not be able to pass it by. Well, I cannot recall the book title nor its Jesuit author’s name, and I’ll check my local library — I think I simply bumped into it there (don’t we all just go to the Catholic shelves and feast our eyes with a burning heart?), but what really blew me away about it was that this stuff seemed basic knowledge — yet another *basic knowledge* I’d never heard a word about! I’m pretty sure one of its subtitles was “we are saved in community”. After an hour’s Googling, no such book sprang forth, but there was an abundance of sacramental grace books that whetted my eyeballs, one not least of which is by one of your newly favorite authors, Adrienne von Speyr, “The word becomes flesh: Meditations on John 1-5.” It is as tempting as a whole box of dark chocolate covered raspberry creams. Seriously. I will not be able to pass it by.
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