Feb 27 2009
Father Thomas Dubay – Deep Conversion
Here is something that I think you will find helpful in terms of our understanding of degrees or stages along the path of holiness. Father Thomas Dubay is the guest on a half-hour program called, “The Choices We Face” (a production of Renewal Ministries), with an excellent interviewer, Peter Herbeck. The video is on Tangle (formerly Godtube). Here is the link: Father Thomas Dubay on “Deep Conversion”. As always, Father Dubay is very down-to-earth and straightforward about all of us growing in holiness.
Some highlights:
- conversion in this sense is referring to moral conversion, from bad to good, from good to better, from better to best
- degrees or stages of conversion: 1) coming out of alienation from God (i.e., coming out of mortal sin into a state of grace); 2) giving up venial sin; 3) heroic virtue (i.e., perfection as far as it is possible on earth – no limit to one’s love)
- everyone is called to heroic virtue
- growing in holiness means becoming perfected in Christ, with a discussion of how this is not a legalistic perfectionism
- our intention should be to “go all the way with God”, i.e., to desire to become a saint
- refers to a locution from God to Angela of Foligno, concerning her desire to be holy: “Make yourself a capacity, and I will make Myself a torrent”.
Enjoy!
When I think of my own longing for Him (and I cannot articulate what I mean by that, but He knows), I cannot imagine the longing that He put St. Teresa and even more, Mother Teresa through.. but as is noted (as well about the founder of the Passionists), there was a very very holy purpose for that seeming remoteness of His. God love anyone who is going through that dark night.
We use inadequate language to describe the experience, of God gifting us the experience of Him. I think St. Teresa talks about losing her sense of time, or thinking that it was possible to undergo physical pain without notice. Does one have partial experience of union, or is it just union? If so how is that related to a linear growth? I don’t think you can have a notion of growth in the experience of contemplation since it is 1) a gift, and 2) an encounter with the eternal.
Sorry for these questions but you guys help me understand so much. I can’t use the language that Carol uses because it is very uncomfortable for me as a man. So need to find different language. I relate more to the Gibson’s passion because it is more masculine. I identify with the suffering Christ. I want to help my brother carry his cross to Golgotha, because he has to make it there, not lay my head on his chest at the last supper. Ladies, is there Holy Union for me with His blood on my clothes, and the slivers of cross boring into my back, and His crown scratching my face? Is there Union in the sweat and stink and agony?
I think part of the problem may be that we’re talking about two different things. In the previous post I was talking about our progress in living holy lives, which is what Fr. Dubay is talking about in this program as well. As I said in the comment I left on the previous post, we’re not talking about measuring ourselves against others, we’re talking about being able to see, objectively, improvement in our own lives down the path of holiness, and there should be clear signposts. For instance, if ten years ago I was in a state of mortal sin, but experienced a conversion of heart and came back to the Sacraments and began living a life into which God was pouring His sacramental grace, then I have started down the path to holiness. If I then overcome many of my habitual venial sins, and continue to work hard on the ones I haven’t overcome yet, I’m progressing on the path to holiness. If I deepen my prayerlife, try to practice the presence of God, increase my spiritual practices and intimate time with the Lord, remain true to the vocation/state of life in which God has placed me, and begin reaching out in the areas of social justice and evangelization then I am progressing even farther along the path. This is what I meant, and this is how I see linear time as being no problem to our awareness of our progress. And progress can be a very simple thing too; just by staying close to the Sacraments and waking up each morning and offering our day for the intentions of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, a soul will be blessed beyond measure and greatly rewarded in heaven.
If you’re talking about growth in contemplative prayer, then you can’t get away from the stages or degrees either. Yes, there is partial union and full union; that is what St. Teresa’s seven mansions are describing. If you use the search engine here, I think it was between July and Oct 2006 we went through them one by one, but all the comments are on my old blog. Also, if you click on Fr. Dubay in my links, it leads to EWTN where he has many audio series on contemplative prayer, etc. Also, you’ll find here (by searching Fr. Dubay podcasts) the links to my fileshares where he has a series on contemplative prayer.
Most assuredly, JT, there is union in His Passion. St. Teresa said this is the quickest way to union, through meditation on His Passion.
I flat out did not know that there was partial union. If I am understanding I did not understand the mansions as part of a whole. Also, the linkage between the Passion and union was new. Thank you this was totally new info for me. I have to think now.
I think of God…as best I can. I am wounded. I am left for dead. I wonder about this ‘union with God’. What is it? Where is He? Can I call Him…Him? He? Must I use gender terms? But this is all I have…terms….words? They hardly suffice at moments like this…but they are all I can use.
I wonder how did I get here? What happened? How did I end up in such a wreck?
Then it occurs to me that I have been led here by a strong desire to sin. I have followed the tempter here of my own free will. It was not so hot nor desserted when I first began to follow. I lost interest in following the suffering servant and saw that others had interesting lives of passion, toys, things, and above all sex. I wanted sex with sexy people. I began to follow in little things and then more complicated things and then I lost my way and then I didn’t care. I was going after things that beforehand would have shocked me and scared me. I am not scared anymore. I do things that I shouldn’t speak of. I have become someone I do not like anymore but I am lost.
I do not know how to save myself. I do not know what to do?
I cannot attain union with God unless He come to me and save me.
The first basic step in union (which is purely love) is awareness of sin in our lives and repentance. All will grow after that. Sin is separation from God, distancing oneself from God; all He seeks is repentance and a growing-closer to His Will instead of our own. The very fact that you are even aware of your hunger for union is given to you by grace. All of the graces Jesus has available for us He has given over to the Blessed Virgin to distribute; she is Mediatrix of all Graces. Whether you know it or not, she is giving you the grace to recognize the distance that has come into being between you and the Lord; you allowed the grace in. Keep allowing it. Keep responding to it, and thank Jesus and Mary everyday; just a little prayer of thank you everyday. They will also respond; stay open.